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TonyB

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Reply with quote  #16 
Wes I think you need to accept that a lot of what you are reading is press sensationalism, they will print anything to get a reaction and generate revenue.

I know you love a conspiracy theory but some of this is just ridiculous.

California is tinder dry having suffered a major drought for many years. The fires and their magnitude are a direct result of this. It’s a natural tragedy.

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geightor

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Reply with quote  #17 
There is always crazy shit going on during natural disasters. I remember when we had  hurricane Wilma, two of the best strip clubs in two burned to the ground. Neither were able to get permits to rebuild...wonder how those fires got started during a hurricane? 

Wes, I don't know how close you have come to one of these fires, but they are burning at 10's of thousands degrees and could very easily melt that old bridge if it passed under or next to it. the problem I see in you pic is that the fire doesn't appear to have gotten that close. 

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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #18 
Yea TB I lived right next to these "Natural Tragedy" of Floods & Fires Big Waves for 35 years & have driven through & around them when PCH was closed on us surfing Zuma.  I sat out surfing at bay st. watching the orange glow of the bu burning many times.  I'm not saying it's true I really don't know but there a lot of big burns & right next to "No Burn" just makes me wonder?   

This is what many are saying, some are firefighter friends."

Read this from a California resident

This is going to be a long but it needs to be said. I live near these fires. I am beyond angry. But guess what? Not at Trump. These fires are real to me. We see flames from our house almost every year. We very nearly lost our home to the Cottonwood Fire in 1994. That was a big, intense fire at the time, burning 48,000 acres over two weeks. Miraculously no homes were lost. Twenty-five years later, it wouldn't even make the news now. Now these fires are burning twice that much land in a matter of days, not weeks. People who live near these fires agree with Trump and have been saying the same thing for decades!

For years I have listened to our former president and governor blame these fires on drought and climate change. Well guess what, we have just come out of the two wettest years on record and these fires are worse than ever. Whether climate change is a factor or not, reducing emissions and making California energy independent is not going to do a a g thing to save our forests today. (And how do you like that air quality now?!) Why the left blames the right, our forests are going up in smoke and NOTHING is done to actually help the situation.

And don't blame the Forest Service either. They KNOW what needs to be done. They WANT to do it. But forest manager have essentially been neutered by environmental groups, crippling their ability to do what needs to be done by costly and time consuming lawsuits. I worked for eight years for the US Forest Service. I saw it with my own eyes. Managers spent so much time doing environmental analyses to comply with and try to avoid lawsuits, that they barely have any time to actually manage the resources. When I left, it was taking seven YEARS to get a timber sale contract through.

These environmental groups would rather see our forests go up in smoke than to see them logged or grazed. They have literally said this. And heaven forbid the management be done by private industry that actually generates money for our government rather than be done by the government itself at the expense of OUR tax dollars.

So Trump is right. These catastrophic fires ARE the result of gross mismanagement. His only mistake is not placing the blame exactly where it belongs: on the environmentalists."


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300hpdavid

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Reply with quote  #19 
And yes, Trump is right about the mismanagement.  His timing in saying so, when people are dying, is pathetic!  His sense of timing in many instances is very poor.
But what this person says about the environmentalists is correct.  The Tahoe basin is ripe for this too.  THAT happening would get people in line for sure.
The forests need to be farmed and managed like any other plant growth.  Not leveled, but thinned of old and dead trees.
It would be much less costly to do this than reacting to these events.
Trump should go ahead and set aside federal funds for the whole west if he is going to say this.  Wrong or right, actions to a solution speak FAR louder than words!  

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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #20 
Yea I agree with the bad timing & I'm sure He was pissed like everyone else at what's going on here but whens a good time this has been going on for 10+ years & Gov. MoonBeam has been running like chicken little screaming Global Warming instead of doing his job.  There's now over 71 dead & 1,011 people are unaccounted for thousands of homes burned & people are pissed & there's a norovirus breaks out at Red Cross shelter.  



We all get to pay for it thanks to Brown.

PG&E customers will pay some wildfire costs under bill signed by Brown

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/PG-E-customers-will-pay-some-wildfire-costs-under-13248293.php



He Vetoed this 2016.

CA Gov. Jerry Brown Vetoed Bipartisan Wildfire Management Bill in 2016

http://www.flashreport.org/blog/2018/08/08/ca-gov-jerry-brown-vetoed-bipartisan-wildfire-management-bill-in-2016/?fbclid=IwAR2bAgdeydSkm4zNakMgZs35Po51_oNd0GB_CSYaO7t3MdfUikz2kYMJ7HE

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geightor

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Reply with quote  #21 
Putting the blame on anyone or anything during the crisis instead of saying what can I do to help is very sad and inconsiderate, but in Trump's defense, he said what he did in response to someone putting the blame on climate change. He was blamed for the last fire in CA because he got us out of the Paris climate accord. 
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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #22 
This is a good read with some history of what's been going on back to Clinton...  I think what pissed off many here is Jerry Brown called these fires "the new normal" when it's bad decisions/policies and incompetence.

How Misguided Environmentalism Is To Blame For California’s Wildfires

http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/16/misguided-environmentalism-blame-californias-wildfires/?fbclid=IwAR3UwmmWrsORTHvmwxDaX00skxbYQqMj-2KHpVzA-4OmmfzEYpJqvmMT-LY

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300hpdavid

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Reply with quote  #23 
Then there is the fact that a lot of the area in question in NorCal is surrounded by National Forrest, and a lot of what has burned is Federal Land...…..
That means that Washington D.C. is in charge of how the land is managed.

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brightredmegaphone

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Reply with quote  #24 
The same has been raised recently with the massive increase in Australian bushfires as well.

Here they call it scrub clearing, where they have prescribed burn offs to get rid of dead timber that simply dries out and accumulates. Gum trees, of which Australia has tens of millions, are highly combustible and fires can move along the tree tops at a few hundred kms/hr with the right winds.

A decade ago, the Greens negotiated a restriction on scrub clearing, leaving it to build up; their argument was 'mother nature' has always taken care of it. The result though, is when the fires come, they are ten times more deadly than they ever used to be. The last one in the State of Victoria (Melbourne) killed 13 people I think, and destroyed entire towns.

Climate change is a cloudy, political football. Common sense though, needs to be rebranded as it is increasingly rare on either side of politics. It should be labelled an endangered species.
Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hpdavid
Then there is the fact that a lot of the area in question in NorCal is surrounded by National Forrest, and a lot of what has burned is Federal Land...…..
That means that Washington D.C. is in charge of how the land is managed.


Think you missed this "For decades" part.

For decades, environmental protection schemes have usurped common sense. For example, most fire ecologists say that the surest way of preventing massive forest fires is to use prescribed burns. The California Environmental Protection Agencystates that “prescribed burning is the intentional use of fire to reduce wildfire hazards, clear downed trees, control plant diseases, improve rangeland and wildlife habitats, and restore natural ecosystems.”

 

Prescribed burns keep forests healthy by burning up the underbrush that accumulates on the forest floor and by thinning trees. Yet for decades the Forest Service has suppressed most fires. According to a California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection executive summary: “Land and fire management have in many cases increased fire hazard. In some shrub types, fire suppression appears to have shifted the fire regime away from more, smaller fires toward fewer, larger fire.”

Despite scientific evidence, the federal government continues spending more money on fire suppression than prescribed burns. The Forest Service has performed prescribed burns on an average of 2,187,64 2 acres a year for the past ten years, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.


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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightredmegaphone
The same has been raised recently with the massive increase in Australian bushfires as well.

Here they call it scrub clearing, where they have prescribed burn offs to get rid of dead timber that simply dries out and accumulates. Gum trees, of which Australia has tens of millions, are highly combustible and fires can move along the tree tops at a few hundred kms/hr with the right winds.

A decade ago, the Greens negotiated a restriction on scrub clearing, leaving it to build up; their argument was 'mother nature' has always taken care of it. The result though, is when the fires come, they are ten times more deadly than they ever used to be. The last one in the State of Victoria (Melbourne) killed 13 people I think, and destroyed entire towns.

Climate change is a cloudy, political football. Common sense though, needs to be rebranded as it is increasingly rare on either side of politics. It should be labelled an endangered species.


Sounds like that here, much of So cal is called the high desert & it's like that down to Mex, I remember friends calling it scrub to on trips tp Mex, just low brush not many trees.

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geightor

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Reply with quote  #27 
My family owns several hundred acres of pine lands in northern Florida and we do all kinds of things to try and prevent the inevitable wild fires that come from a single cigarette but from a passenger in a car, or a lightning strike. Forestry management is very expensive, and sometimes it can cost as much over time as you can get for the harvest so you have to come up with ways to do both. In the old days my grandfathers had woods cows that would roam through the woods and keep the terrain beat down and eat the natural grasses, they harvested the turpentine from the trees, they had a timber guy on the property that would just cut what was needed to keep bugs out, light coming in and room for new growth. Fire breaks were maintained, and control burns were regular. Things are done differently now, but we have to work it regularly to protect the crop. Pine straw people come in and rake the straw for mulch, we plant the rows closely together and after 10-12 years thin out every third row for fence posts and again for pulp wood. we bring in a D9 dozer to cut the fire breaks and do control burns. It is not easy and people are just too lazy today to do stuff like this because it is hard and dangerous work.  The idiots that are blocking the forestry management in CA are just plain stupid; or at the very least very uniformed. 
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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #28 
For decades the liberals & environmentalists use the spotted owl & other endangered species in court along with bureaucracy red tape to block the forestry management is what is at the root & each year CA is paying for this with bigger & more destructive fires & the Idiots in charge is running around going on about global warming.

People laughed at Trump when he pointed out the facts after two weeks of researching all over the internet people found he accusations to be very accurate, then days after Trump comes to Ca and visits with Gavin and Gov Brown and magically next day they are gonna start logging again.

Thank you President Trump !!!

Facing Deadlier Fires, California Tries Something New: More Logging

https://www.wsj.com/articles/facing-deadlier-fires-california-tries-something-new-more-logging-1542390642?mod=e2fb&fbclid=IwAR1hVq0Oo8W4fps7ipdq8erClAmNzaMX5oMkygekM2Pngqw8QGm-JWxNEak

 


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300hpdavid

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog


Think you missed this "For decades" part.

For decades, environmental protection schemes have usurped common sense. For example, most fire ecologists say that the surest way of preventing massive forest fires is to use prescribed burns. The California Environmental Protection Agencystates that “prescribed burning is the intentional use of fire to reduce wildfire hazards, clear downed trees, control plant diseases, improve rangeland and wildlife habitats, and restore natural ecosystems.”

 

Prescribed burns keep forests healthy by burning up the underbrush that accumulates on the forest floor and by thinning trees. Yet for decades the Forest Service has suppressed most fires. According to a California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection executive summary: “Land and fire management have in many cases increased fire hazard. In some shrub types, fire suppression appears to have shifted the fire regime away from more, smaller fires toward fewer, larger fire.”

Despite scientific evidence, the federal government continues spending more money on fire suppression than prescribed burns. The Forest Service has performed prescribed burns on an average of 2,187,64 2 acres a year for the past ten years, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.



I agree with this, and it is my point.  The Feds were not taking care of the National Forrest surrounding Paradise.  So while blame is being pointed at local and state agency's for not taking care of the forests, the Feds are not doing so either.

Every level needs to work together to prevent this from happening again, anywhere.  Thinning and prescribed burns will help for sure.  This is not a political things.  Like any disaster, there are no party lines.  Fires, hurricanes, earthquakes, oceanic storms do not care who believes what. 
Survival and being safe is something that we all should agree to work on.





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Bulldog

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Reply with quote  #30 
It is pretty much "a political thing" The left/democrats have pushed there environmental policies for 40 years now.


Environmentalist Policies Are Exacerbating Wildfires. It’s Time to Rethink Forest Management.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/10/13/environmentalist-policies-exacerbating-wildfires-time-rethink-forest-management/

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