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felix2000

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Reply with quote  #31 
I appreciate the sensitivity of this debate but I'd like to comment...

Population of USA 298 million - 30,000 gun deaths per annum (guns allowed)
Population of UK 61 million - 250 gun deaths per annum (no guns allowed)

After our children were killed at the school in Dunblane in Scotland we pretty much outlawed all types of guns in the UK to the exent that our Olympic shooters practice in Europe now - thats the price we are happily willing to pay. In Australia 11 years ago they chose to do the same.

I sleep no less safely in my bed without a gun than if I was allowed to have one (which I wouldn't) and I'd rather not have the risk of kids shot than uphold a right to be allowed to go shoot a deer.

Not being from the US I dont have the experience of growing up with the right to bear arms or the NRA and therefore  it makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone really 'needs' to own one - really, except maybe a farmer for pest control. However it does come across that I have never yet heard a seriously valid reason for owning one other than pure 'desire' or 'fear' - neither of which are rational arguments for ownership.  

Thats my only comment on this.

Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #32 

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix2000
Not being from the US I dont have the experience of growing up with the right to bear arms or the NRA and therefore  it makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone really 'needs' to own one - really, except maybe a farmer for pest control. However it does come across that I have never yet heard a seriously valid reason for owning one other than pure 'desire' or 'fear' - neither of which are rational arguments for ownership.  

I'm from the US, and I pretty much agree 100% with the above.


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TonyB

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISLANDSK8R
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB

How many more tragedies does America want to endure before you realise that you need to do something about your guns?



Abolish all gun control including registration.

TonyB, what happened at VA Tech is a tragedy, a tragedy that could have been prevented if students and faculty had the right to protect themselves on campus by the right to carry a firearm. Gun Control leads to State Control (Ottoman Empire, U.S.S.R, Nazi Germany, China, Cambodia (Khmer Rouge) ) to name a few and turns law abiding citizens into sitting duck for psychos to shoot at.

This is SO WRONG, you'll just end up with a shoot out like at the OK Coral.



Felix - you put it so well. There is no justafiable reason for you to need to be armed.

For the rest of you who refuse to see any other side to the argument other than we must arm ourselves to protect us from others/criminals. ITS SUCH A BULLSHIT ARGUEMENT, ITS BLOODY PATHETIC.

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Reply with quote  #34 
desire or fear are perfectly valid reasons for wanting to own a firearm. just becasue you do not agree with personal ownership of guns does not make it irrational.

Tuk, can you demonstrate why an ammendment to our great constitution is weak while the others are not? If not, thats just so, and i quote, "fucking weak". if you hold the constitution in such low regard, give up your first ammendment right and shut the hell up. (i am not trying to be disrespectful, only to show a juxtaposition)
Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #35 
Tony. . .easy tiger.

You have the right to feel the way you do and all, but think about it here for a minute, won't you?

How do you propose taking care of the situation of guns in America?

Sounds to me like you've got an idea that'll solve everything yesterday.  If so, I say throw it down and start collecting them nobel prizes. 

Billions of people bro.  Millions of guns.

And even if you somehow get everyone on this forum to willfully throw away their personal firearms, guess what?

Still billions of people with millions of guns.

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Reply with quote  #36 
do you even know about the OK Corral? not just from watching Kurt Russel and Val Kilmer shoot those other guys, but the historical shootout?

in the late 19th century American west, the old west, where you had men walking around armed the crime rate was lower. if the majority of the citezenry is armed, it is safer for the law abiding citizen. it was so bacj then as it is today in towns/cities where the people are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. it is stupid of you to think that because of how the 'old west' was depicted that it actually was like that.
Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #37 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Soul
Tuk, can you demonstrate why an ammendment to our great constitution is weak while the others are not? If not, thats just so, and i quote, "fucking weak". if you hold the constitution in such low regard, give up your first ammendment right and shut the hell up. (i am not trying to be disrespectful, only to show a juxtaposition)

Because I didn't want to get into the particular discussion of why the argument is weak.  It's not really all that relevant and is just going to cause a pissing match and divert the thread.

That said though, you asked. . .and told me to shut the hell up, so. . .

The essence of what our forefathers wrote into the constitution about the 'right to bear arms' in no way reflects today's society.  Not only that, but said forefathers could have never imagined what people would be doing with guns today.  Never.  They would have been disgusted by the mere notion of what happens in this country.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if you were to resurrect our forefathers today, that they would consider their entire plight with what the essence of the constitution was to be a miserable failure just because of that one statement about the right to bear arms.

When the constitution was written we were a small country with limited defenses.  On top of that, we were still hunting animals to support ourselves.  The essence behind the 'right to bear arms' was written, (I believe) to be able to defend ourselves, as individuals, from harmful invaders first and foremost.  Second, it was written to ensure that families were fed.

The meaning behind my comment about a WEAK argument is pointed directly at anyone who pulls a 'it's our constitutional right' bullshit without thinking about it.

What if it was written in the constitution that child abuse was legal?  Or how about the 'right' of the people to grow poppy's to support the nations heroin use.

There would have been amendments years ago to change both of those.  In my opinion, it's just unconscious knowledge that the so-called right to bear arms was a mistake.  Period.  It should have been ammended out around 1800, when it still could have been.

Now you shut up beotch.

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Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Soul
do you even know about the OK Corral? not just from watching Kurt Russel and Val Kilmer shoot those other guys, but the historical shootout?

in the late 19th century American west, the old west, where you had men walking around armed the crime rate was lower. if the majority of the citezenry is armed, it is safer for the law abiding citizen. it was so bacj then as it is today in towns/cities where the people are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. it is stupid of you to think that because of how the 'old west' was depicted that it actually was like that.


You edited your post to put up this drivel?  Pa-lease! 

There were fewer lawyers in the old west pad'na, and the laws in general were weaker depending on where you went.

You could be confronted in a bar, take it outside, draw, shoot and be back at the bar in about 10 minutes.

I can just see some chap in a bar in downtown San Francisco, taking it out on to Market street, gunning his confronter down and. . .um. . .GOING TO JAIL!

Even in states where it is legal to carry, most people don't.  They've replaced their Smith and Wesson's with their Blackberry's.



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Reply with quote  #39 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukinator
They've replaced their Smith and Wesson's with their Blackberry's.


I've got 2 words for that...
Stupid People.


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Reply with quote  #40 
edit? why dont you go back and read it all. i didnt edit anything
OC

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukinator
Because I didn't want to get into the particular discussion of why the argument is weak.  It's not really all that relevant and is just going to cause a pissing match and divert the thread.

That said though, you asked. . .and told me to shut the hell up, so. . .

The essence of what our forefathers wrote into the constitution about the 'right to bear arms' in no way reflects today's society.  Not only that, but said forefathers could have never imagined what people would be doing with guns today.  Never.  They would have been disgusted by the mere notion of what happens in this country.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if you were to resurrect our forefathers today, that they would consider their entire plight with what the essence of the constitution was to be a miserable failure just because of that one statement about the right to bear arms.

When the constitution was written we were a small country with limited defenses.  On top of that, we were still hunting animals to support ourselves.  The essence behind the 'right to bear arms' was written, (I believe) to be able to defend ourselves, as individuals, from harmful invaders first and foremost.  Second, it was written to ensure that families were fed.

The meaning behind my comment about a WEAK argument is pointed directly at anyone who pulls a 'it's our constitutional right' bullshit without thinking about it.

What if it was written in the constitution that child abuse was legal?  Or how about the 'right' of the people to grow poppy's to support the nations heroin use.

There would have been amendments years ago to change both of those.  In my opinion, it's just unconscious knowledge that the so-called right to bear arms was a mistake.  Period.  It should have been ammended out around 1800, when it still could have been.

Now you shut up beotch.
This has got to be the biggest bunch of bullshit that I have read here in a long time

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Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #42 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC

This has got to be the biggest bunch of bullshit that I have read here in a long time

I stand by it 100%. . .and it got you to chime in, didn't it? 

edit:  By the way Chuck, don't call it bullshit w/o a retort.


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Tukinator

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Reply with quote  #43 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Soul
edit? why dont you go back and read it all. i didnt edit anything

My bad.  I was busy cleaning my gun.


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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
The essence of what our forefathers wrote into the constitution about the 'right to bear arms' in no way reflects today's society. Not only that, but said forefathers could have never imagined what people would be doing with guns today. Never. They would have been disgusted by the mere notion of what happens in this country.


your argument is solely based on assertion. the esence? todays society? is there any historical documentaion that you have come accross to show what the writers to our constitution were actually writing, in essence?

Amendment II


A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


its in plain English.

Quote:
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if you were to resurrect our forefathers today, that they would consider their entire plight with what the essence of the constitution was to be a miserable failure just because of that one statement about the right to bear arms.


once again, your argument suffers from assertion. just because things are or are not to your liking, doeas nor mean that our forefathers think like you.

Quote:
When the constitution was written we were a small country with limited defenses. On top of that, we were still hunting animals to support ourselves. The essence behind the 'right to bear arms' was written, (I believe) to be able to defend ourselves, as individuals, from harmful invaders first and foremost. Second, it was written to ensure that families were fed.


wait a minute, you beleive? its not what you beleive Bryan its what you know. I beleive that every law abiding citizen should be allowed to own a firearm. so, what! you keep making these "i beleive" claims to support your truth claim. bad argumentation. just becasue you beleive things to be a certain way doesnt mean they are that way.

Quote:
What if it was written in the constitution that child abuse was legal? Or how about the 'right' of the people to grow poppy's to support the nations heroin use.


wow, i hope you are not saying that your only reason for disliking child abuse is becasue it is against the law. child abuse or slavery or other such matters are about morality and not law! teh gun rights issue is a civil matter not a moral one.

ISLANDSK8R

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tukinator

Even in states where it is legal to carry, most people don't. They've replaced their Smith and Wesson's with their Blackberry's.


I don't know about that one, since moving to Colorado I've met more people who carry than don't, and the crime rate here is very low.
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